Re: DataViews - Proposal - move to sourceforge!

From: Demetrios Kyriakis (
Date: Sun Nov 04 2007 - 07:33:42 EST

  • Next message: Demetrios Kyriakis: "Re: DataViews - Proposal - move to sourceforge!"

    Andrus Adamchik wrote:
    > Actually we had a similar discussion some time ago, and also related
    > to DataViews. Forking and relicensing is an easy option:
    > Whoever wants to work on a fork, I suggest you contact Adrian
    > Wiesmann (who is likely reading this list). I think he already did a
    > fork and placed it on SourceForge (?)
    Well, as I mentioned, I'm not interested in "forking" but "moving" :).
    I saw Adrian's work - it's not a standalone SF project, but part of some
    other one, and as you
    say - it's a *fork* :).

    Andrus Adamchik wrote:
    > I disagree that Apache license as such is unfriendly to GUI projects
    > (at least I haven't heard any reasonable argument to back that idea),
    > but the fact that most existing libraries converged around (L)GPL
    > could definitely play its role as a high barrier to entry. Although
    > there are notable exceptions - JGoodies uses BSD license.
    Yes, sure - the exception that confirms the rule :).
    The thumb rule I heard on many JUGs(and forums) is that "if you want a tool
    or GUI use LGLP, if you want
    a general library than use BSD or Apache". I got no explanation why is that
    so (beyond "lawyers found this as the best combination"), but it seems that
    developers apply it :).

    Andrus Adamchik wrote:
    > Finally I have no idea why people are so afraid to contribute to
    > Apache. There are no barriers, except for the ones that any
    > established project would have, namely that the people involved in
    > the project value their reputation built over the years, and
    > therefore require new contributors to go through the karma building
    > process, before giving them write access. I think that's very
    > reasonable.
    Well I can give you a few reasons, but I suppose "true Apache believers"
    will dismiss them and will consider "flame" :). This is not my intention,
    but to give you another point of view - that of *your users*.

    #1 - most people do open source work in their free time, and this for fun
    and only as long as it makes fun.
    (Well there might be exceptions - maybe on there are more
    "employees" doing open source work in their "work time" than somewhere
    #2 - submitting patches to an issue tracking system is no fun.
    There's no direct feedback, there's no "instant gratification", and for sure
    it does not compare with a simply making a quick check in and getting
    feedback for your changes.
    #2.1 - in many Apache projects, issues (with patches but with simple code
    snippets too) take months to get into the code - if they ever get. A simple
    browse of the Apache JIRA shows this state: there are even a few projects
    where this takes years :) - Velocity, JAMES, Commons VFS - just to mention a
    few (and your users know them even if they don't express their frustration
    with that state).
    #3 - getting commit rights is waaaay too complicated on - on
    sourceforge it takes only one click :). If it's not OK what that developer
    does, the rights can be revoked anytime, and the code rollbacked - nobody
    gets upset and nobody is loosing time - the time frame where the contributor
    is in "fun state" is kept :).
    #4 - on SF unlike most people spend no time on licensing
    discussions (nor really do they care) or voting with the most strange voting
    ever invented: "veto" for everybody :) :) :). (on Apache JAMES this veto
    this leads to constant blocking in the last 3 years, and on other projects
    to always choose the "least common denominator", or developers being
    Ueber-cautious - this simply kills creativity, and 100% kills fun :) ).

    I hope, you don't take this as a flame but as an insight in the perspective
    of your users trying to help.

    Thank you,


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